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xs650 > > General Conversation > > I'm just saying... you know > > Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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5twins Full Member
Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616
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Posted: July 1, 2009, 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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I guess I don't understand this rake and trail business very well. What exactly are you trying to accomplish or, in other words, what helps for sidecar use? Moving the front wheel back in and creating a steeper fork angle or kicking it out farther forward, like a chopper extended front end?
On the Earles, you move the swingarm pivot to the forward hole, in effect lengthening the wheelbase some and kicking the front end out ahead more. There are also 2 upper shock mount holes, one below the other. You move the upper shock eye to the lower hole along with moving the swingarm pivot ahead. This would seem to move the front wheel ahead and increase the rake, right? It does lengthen the wheelbase by 1.3" (35mm) according to the specs in the manual.
Another thing the manual tells you is absolutely DO NOT ride the bike solo with the forks in the sidecar position, guess it wobbles or something, huh
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jayel 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: SE Iowa 1974 TX650A
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Posted: July 1, 2009, 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Harley had a special fork on their bikes for sidecars
www.libertysidecars.co...oduct5.htm
_________________ all it takes is time and money -- Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket? |
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: July 1, 2009, 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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I remeber those adjustable stock one's from Harley and there is one on ebay for a "G" note, yikes! you could change rake for sidecar or no sidecar Interesting they used that same tree on the servi-car? $ and cents is why I'm sure.
_________________ gordonscottengineering @ verizon.net |
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Barbara Full Member
Joined: Feb 17, 2008 Posts: 812 Location: Washington State
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Posted: July 1, 2009, 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Hi Guys,
Back to the position of the third wheel for a second--I guess I was snow-blind. I have a manual for a BSA that shows how to mount a chair to an A65, and they show the "proper" position of the third wheel in relation to the motorcycle wheels. It's also, of course, a "starting point", but in the case of my present chair, it worked really well. I can dig up the book and get the measurement if anyone is interested. The thing is, that the specs are predicated upon use of the BSA front fork, so that should be taken into account.
There's really no end to the variables, and that's one of the things that makes sidecars so interesting.....and frustrating.....infuriating.....and fun.
_________________ Barb
Jaelith the XS650 with sidecar
Britney the BSA
Gemini the BSA
Baby B. the BSA
Big John the BSA
The unnamed Triumph T-140
and the 1979 XS650....with "potential"
Millie the 1980 airhead BMW |
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nudude53 Full Member
Joined: Apr 24, 2009 Posts: 623 Location: Snow Camp, North Carolina
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Posted: July 1, 2009, 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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I flunked math, I guess I'm gonna flunk sidecar too.
_________________ 2 TX650's, 1 XS650B and counting |
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: July 7, 2009, 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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nudude53 wrote: |
I flunked math, I guess I'm gonna flunk sidecar too. | We will flunk together my friend
_________________ gordonscottengineering @ verizon.net |
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: July 7, 2009, 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Hi Guys, Well this whole thing has been very interesting to say the least. I have wanted to roll this whole pile of sh!t down a hill and into a tree many times now but looking back a lot of it was my own doing and inexperience . I have had this thing apart so many times now I was not being as thorough as I should have in my measurements. Somehow the sidecar wheel lead was changed and was about 11” forward of rear tire on bike. This made for great left turn stability and strait ahead driving but made turning a real chore. Imagine a car with only one front wheel turning, an exaggeration to make the point. Now with wheel at 9” it is a lot easier to turn with only minimal loss of left hand turn stability. By myself this is the best I’ve had it! Makes me realize how critical every adjustment is and how I had this thing screwed up 6 ways to Sunday, which brings me to my next point. When I put my wife in the chair it all changed again, WTF!!! I had her sit in the sidecar while I watched and for the first time could see the rear of the sidecar sink a little more then the bike? 5twins was right, I need to sub frame this for better sidecar mounting and get the bottom two mounts further apart (thanks 5twins for that info ). So for now I just used 3/16” plate steel mounted to bike and connected together from both sides of bike, it is strong. The other mounts are good because they are all at strong locations on the frame, near motor mount, up by neck gusset etc… Well I had her get in it with new mount and it did not sink, went for a ride and success !!! Because sidecar was not mounted sturdy (felt sturdy) it was shifting a tiny bit when she got in it and was changing my toe in and lean out angles. So again it’s now better then ever, goes down the road strait and is totally neutral left and right. Also the right pull on acceleration and left pull on deceleration is a lot less? Not sure why this is? I would think with the wheel lead moved back the pull would increase, but I’m not complaining. I still will need to do something about turning because with a passenger it gets tiring after a hundred miles or so. Thanks again guys for your help, ALL of you, it is now a usable rig. Next will be the front end trail, I still think I would like to build a leading link but now that I know just how critical things must be I will look into it a little more, anyone with experience in this department? I’m all ears.
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_________________ gordonscottengineering @ verizon.net |
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4t51 New Member
Joined: Jan 21, 2009 Posts: 4
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Posted: July 7, 2009, 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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www.hpsidecars.com/
Poke around at this link you'll find a lot of sidecar do's and don'ts on fabrication etc. We're a good bunch of guy's who like to help out if we can.
4t
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Retiredgentleman 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Mar 03, 2007 Posts: 2258 Location: Calgary, Alberta 1978 XS650 SE
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Posted: July 7, 2009, 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Some great pictures of sidecars at that link, Barb's going to love it.
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5twins Full Member
Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616
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Posted: July 7, 2009, 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Well, it seems you're making some headway, Gordon. The BMW /2 had it's lower rear mount very far back, almost to the rear axle (red arrow). The front lower mount was accomplished by replacing the front motor mount bolt with a special one that had a ball on the end (green arrow). Upper mounts were eye bolts stuck into lugs that came welded to the frame from the factory (yellow arrows).
The use of ball mounts for the lower attachment points is quite common on Euro sidecars. It makes adjusting the lean in/out on the bike much easier.
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: July 8, 2009, 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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4t51 wrote: |
http://www.hpsidecars.com/
Poke around at this link you'll find a lot of sidecar do's and don'ts on fabrication etc. We're a good bunch of guy's who like to help out if we can.
4t | thanks a bunch, great site!
_________________ gordonscottengineering @ verizon.net |
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: July 8, 2009, 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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5twins wrote: |
Well, it seems you're making some headway, Gordon. The BMW /2 had it's lower rear mount very far back, almost to the rear axle (red arrow). The front lower mount was accomplished by replacing the front motor mount bolt with a special one that had a ball on the end (green arrow). Upper mounts were eye bolts stuck into lugs that came welded to the frame from the factory (yellow arrows).
The use of ball mounts for the lower attachment points is quite common on Euro sidecars. It makes adjusting the lean in/out on the bike much easier. | MAN that bike is nice!!!
_________________ gordonscottengineering @ verizon.net |
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xjwmx Full Member
Joined: Oct 15, 2008 Posts: 323 Location: KY '81 Special
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Posted: July 8, 2009, 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Today I saw an old Russian bike with sidecar and the sidecar wheel was driven by a thing that looked like a cv joint on the bike's rear wheel hub.
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jayel 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: SE Iowa 1974 TX650A
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Posted: July 8, 2009, 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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www.ural.com/ click on the green one in the center.... these started out as russian copies of WWII German BMW's...
there are also Dneprs
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...otorcycle)
_________________ all it takes is time and money -- Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket? |
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xjwmx Full Member
Joined: Oct 15, 2008 Posts: 323 Location: KY '81 Special
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Posted: July 16, 2009, 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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It was a Dnepr (pronounced nepper apparently). Looks exactly like the one in the wiki link.
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feliz Full Member
Joined: May 26, 2009 Posts: 29 Location: Vancouver, Canada
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Posted: July 16, 2009, 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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This is what I carry in my rig!!
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jayel 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: SE Iowa 1974 TX650A
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Posted: July 17, 2009, 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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What! No Caviar! Old Russian proverb "the church is near but the roads are icy, the tavern is far but we will walk carefully"
_________________ all it takes is time and money -- Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket? |
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650skull Support Staff
Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186
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Posted: July 17, 2009, 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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750cc and 40hp, not exactly for the track but man they are nice
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jayel 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: SE Iowa 1974 TX650A
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Posted: July 17, 2009, 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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read a write up of couple that toured a Ural rig, no superslab all secondaries 55mph cruise which is about topend for one of those
_________________ all it takes is time and money -- Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket? |
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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feliz Full Member
Joined: May 26, 2009 Posts: 29 Location: Vancouver, Canada
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Posted: July 18, 2009, 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Thanks for the comments. I'm getting ready to head off to work and I can elaborate more later but my experiance with the Ural hasn't been great. Mine is an 05 and only has 3500 kms (2000 miles) and there's a reason why, it hasn't been running most of the time. I had little support from my dealer or Ural Canada and had to go over the border to the US to get any help. All is well now though and as others have said these are a hoot. Scary at any speed, two wheel drive is OK but with no differential is only good in limited situations. Wayne
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jayel 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: SE Iowa 1974 TX650A
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Posted: July 19, 2009, 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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here's a pic of my rig on a 71 CB450 Honda, have since made a fender for it and mounted a honda 360 swingarm on the bike 2" longer and the lower shock mounts are also that much farther back, lowered the rear of the bike and changed the front fork geometry, took a lot of the previous headshake problem out of it, the hack is a Thompson CycleCar from the early 70's real light so it wasn't suitible for the 650 wanted to fly all the time, on the 450 it's just right 55/60mph and stable
www.cyclesidecar.com/p...Manual.pdf
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_________________ all it takes is time and money -- Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket? |
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gordonscott Full Member
Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: July 20, 2009, 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk |
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Hey Jayel, why did you wait so long to share this little factoid? how long have you been hack'in? And also when you changed your swing arm and dropped the rear down you increased trail, that reduced front end wobble but harder to turn at speed or with weight in the car. That is a very light sidecar indeed so you don’t notice the evils of sidecars as bad as heavier rigs I would imagine? Also looks flat out there so perfect for sidecars Have you driven a bigger outfit for comparison? I would love to have something to compare with so anyone in New England want to let a stranger try their most prized possession let me know
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