New AGM Battery... not starting

fasteddie · Posted: May 11, 2009, 2:27 pm Post subject: New AGM Battery... not starting

I've just purchased and connected a new AGM battery from Mikes to my '82 Heritage Special thinking I might upgrade my battery and get my electric start working again. After pushing the electric start button it made a quick buzz noise like it had power and then kicked the lights. It acted as if it had blown a fuse. After inspecting the fuse box under the seat (automotive fuses) nothing was blown. Are there other fuses to check or is there something else I should be looking at.
Thanks.

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

Check the voltage on the battery with a volt meter first

Joseph · Full Member Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY

I could be wrong but there mat be a main in line fuse before the fuse panel. Anyone know if there is an in line main fuse , stock?

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

Cars have what is called "a fusible link," but the XS650 does not. One clue resides in fasteddie's original post: "I just purchased and connected a new AGM battery. . . . After pushing the electric start button it made a quick buzz noise like it had power and then kicked the lights" (whatever it means to "kick the lights," who knows?).

Your AGM battery did not come from Mike's fully charged. Before you put that battery in your bike, you should have charged it for six, maybe eight hours, and possibly overnight. Point is, that battery should have been fully charged before you installed it. According to what you wrote, fasteddie, you didn't charge it up. It won't work until you do.

Another thing: did you clean the ends of the battery cables before you hooked them up? It's a good idea to polish them with a wire brush before you hook them to the new battery because the contact surfaces on those old cables are not clean and may not give you a good connection.

650skull is right, too. Check that battery with a voltmeter. It may not be fully charged. It may have some physical defect (a dead cell or something) that prevents it from getting a full charge. I don't know anything about AGM batteries except what I've read here and in the sales literature at Mike's XS. All sources stress the fact that the AGM battery MUST be fully charged BY THE USER before it's connected to the machine.

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

650skull -- do you know if the AGM battery needs one of Mike's special AGM battery chargers, or will my old, standard trickle charger to the trick? I plan to get an AGM next month.

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

Jimmy when i bought mine it was fully charged. I didn't think about a charger and assumed mine would work then realized, (after buying), because it's sealed i had better check. ......Mikes didn't have the Special battery chargers for them for sale at the time.......I asked in an earlier post and here is the link www.650rider.com/index...4392#44392

nj1639 · Posted: May 11, 2009, 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

Jimmy,
I picked up a 30+/- dollar trickle charger at a farm supply place, 6 or 12 volt select, for mine. Works fine.

fasteddie · Posted: May 11, 2009, 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

Thanks Jimmy. I was unaware of the need for immediate charging. No where on the battery or box does it say that... However it makes sense since there is a possibility that it had been sitting before shipment from Mikes. AGM batteries are new to me. What are the chances that this battery has been damaged? It sounds like the initial slow charging forms the cells of the battery and prolongs battery life. I have it on a Battery Fighter slow charger also from Mikes XS. The charger seems to be cycling through the following lights; Bulk Charge, Absorption and Maintenance. Does anyone with a Battery Fighter Charger know if this is normal? I'm hoping it will show a constant Absorption light 80% by morning. If not I'll buy a voltmeter. Was hoping to get one for my birthday...

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

It doesn't really make sense that the AGM would need a special charger. I mean you plug them into the same old XS650 charging system, so it only makes sense that my old trickle charger would work on them, too. I wonder what's "special" about Mike's special charger for AGM batteries?

Anybody got a clue?

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

Fasteddie, when my battery arrived it was fully charged at 13.5 volts.....i suggested checking with a meter as you just never know.
Jimmy, i would think charging a sealed battery, (as the AGM ), To fast could cause heating/pressure problems........... with no outlet?????????......... I don't know and i am sure a low trickle charger would work but how low it has to be ?????????????? If you read the link i posted Jayal said it needed a small charge of around a 1/2 amp for a long period of time.........An automated shut of charger would be needed i guess.......................Dammed annoying, when i bought that of Mikes there was no mention of having to have a special charger and he wasn't selling the chargers then.......
Just read up on Mikes and here is what it says about the charger
Product Photo
Deluxe 12 Volt Battery Charger for AGM (Absorbed glass mat), Maintenance free,
VRLA, Gel and conventional flooded lead acid batteries. UL & CSA Approved.
Output is 1.25 Amps, 12 volt DC (maximum 14.5 Volts). 4 Stage Microprocessor
controlled charging with automatic shutoff at full charge. 120v AC Input.

1. Qualification - Ensures battery is safe to charge, and has minimum 3 Volts.
2. Bulk Charge - Raises battery to 80 percent of full voltage.
3. Absorption - Holds battery voltage at 80 percent and forces current to top battery
4. Float Mode - Maintains the fully charged battery at a proper working voltage.
Charger Features - 6 LED indicators to show charging status, reverse polarity
protection, overheat protection, overcharge protection and spark proofing.
Full instructions, quick disconnect alligator clip leads and fused eye terminal
leads included. (Not for outdoor use). ....................
and about the Battery..........................Absorbed Glass Mat(AGM) is the latest in motorcycle battery technology.
Sealed AGM batteries completely eliminate the hassels of conventional
battery maintenance. There is no liquid acid in the AGM battery. All of the
acid is absorbed into the compressed glass matting in the cells. They are
completely Non-Spillable, so they can be shipped by U.S. Mail or UPS with
no hazardous warnings or extra fees. They can be mounted in any position
for special applications. Our AGM batteries re-combine the oxygen and
hydrogen as the batteries charge and discharge to make them truly
maintenance free. No liquid ever needs to be added, No leaks, spills or vent
tubes. AGM batteries have higher cold cranking Amps and hold a charge
much longer. Replaces 12n14-3a / YB14LA2 original batteries

AGM Batteries Feature
Batteries are wet charged at the factory but contain no liquid acid.
Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) technology eliminates the need to add
electrollyte.
Built to withstand the demands of high-heat applications.
Lower internal resistance reduces charging time vs. conventional wet
batteries.
Permaseal Design is Maintenance Free and Non-Spillable.
Resistant to vibration damage for reliable performance even under rough
off-road conditions.
Engineered to meet or exceed OEM specifications to ensure exact fit and
power needs.
Slower self discharge rate means AGM batteries can sit for extended periods
of time without constant monitoring. A conventional wet battery discharges
15% a month where our AGM batteries discharge only 2-3% a month

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

skull -- Yeah, I read all of that, too. It tells me all the good stuff about that particular product, all the tricks it does, etc. But it doesn't tell me the old trickle charger won't work.

I'm not saying the old trickle charger WILL WORK, either. What I'm saying is that, given the fact that this newfangled battery is OK in an old, stock, XS electrical system (which doesn't know any of the tricks that newfangled battery charger knows) the newfangled battery OUGHT TO BE compatible with an oldfangled battery charger. And Mike doesn't tell me that it isn't.

So my question for Mike is: Do I actually need a newfangled battery charger, or can I get by with my old, faithful, Monkey Ward trickle charger -- the one I bought for my lawnmower forty years ago that still works fine?

yamaman · Posted: May 12, 2009, 7:17 am Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

If your battery charger doesn't exceed your bikes charging system, then I'd imagine that it would have to be ok??????

Joseph · Full Member Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY

What is the amp out put to the batery on an xs charging system?

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

Good point Yamaman............

jayel · Posted: May 12, 2009, 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

14 volts, 11amps @ 2000 rpm = 154 watts
14 volts, 16 amps @ 5000rpm = 224 watts
with the bike using around 160 at any one time... highbeam on, tail/brake on, turn on, in N,
headlight 40/50w
tail/stop 8/23w
turn bulbs 27w x2 54w
neutral 3w
indic.warning 3w
high beam indic. 3w
instr lamps 3wx4 12w
brake wear 3w
brake warning 3w

Joseph · Full Member Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY

Quote::

14 volts, 16 amps @ 5000RPM = 224 watts
with the bike using around 160 at any one time... high beam on, tail/brake on, turn on, in N,

What does that equate to in amps being left over for charging. after about 160w. 224w- 160w=64w at 14 volts how many amps is that?

jayel · Posted: May 12, 2009, 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

4.5A 64/14 = 4.57.....

fasteddie · Posted: May 12, 2009, 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

Thanks skull. I'll get a meter on it hopefully tomorrow.

dpmphoto · Posted: May 12, 2009, 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

I thought when charging that battery you could not exceed 2 amps from the charger

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

Trickle chargers DON'T charge more than about six amps at any time. That's why they call 'em "trickle" chargers. The output on my old Monkey Ward charger peaks at five amps and reduces automatically as the battery charges up. When the battery is fully charged, the output of the charger (if it still charges at that point) is probably measured in miliamps.

Automotive alternators charge (used to charge) 15 amps at idle. You can't push 15 amps through a little motorcycle battery. Try that and you vaporize the thing.

pamcopete · Posted: May 13, 2009, 7:12 am Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

6 amps is way too much for a trickle charger on a 14 AmpHour battery. The general rule is no more than 10 % of the AH rating, so a 14 Amp Hour battery should be "trickled" with no more than 1.4 Amps. I use a 1 Amp charger. A 2 amp charger would be acceptable.

yamaman · Posted: May 13, 2009, 7:42 am Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

Pete, so when your riding along at 5000 rpm with just the head, tail & dash lights on, how much current is going into the battery then?

I do realise that the alternator will be cycling with the regulator doing its job, I would guess though that the regulator would be engaging quite regularly though? Laughing

pamcopete · Posted: May 13, 2009, 8:43 am Post subject: Re: New AGM Battery... not starting

yamaman,

Well, at 5,000 RPM the alternator is supposed to produce 16 Amps. If we assume about 12 Amps to run the headlight, ignition system, regulator and tail light, then that leaves about 4 Amps to charge the battery, which would be too much for a 14 AH battery.

The reccomended charging rate of 1.4 Amps is for a discharged battery. The definition of discharged is 10.5 Volts at the battery. Once the battery is charged to 12.7 volts, it doesn't draw any more current, so at the regulated voltage of 14.5, the battery will only draw about 1 Amp.

So, if you started out with 10.5 volts on the battery right after running the starter motor, it's not likely that you would be crusing along at 5,000 RPM instantly with the battery drawing 4 Amps. As you work your way up through the gears, the battery would be drawing various currents, all of which would be below 4 Amps, so by the time you got to 5,000 RPM, the battery would only be drawing about an Amp.

The reccomended 1.4 charging amps also has a time component. Current in excerss of 1.4 amps is converted into heat, which is destructive of the battery, but the batteyr could certainly draw 4 Amps for brief periods as it takes time to heat up. This is evident when starting. The battery delivers up to 60 Amps when starting, but only for a brief time. That's one of the reasons that you should not crank the engine more than a few seconds at a time. To avoid overheating the battery (and the starter motor).

So, as you work your way up through the gears with a discharged battery (10.5 volts) you may hit 5,000 RPM and deliver 4 Amps to the battery, but only for a brief time. By the time you get to cruising at 5,000 RPM, the battery is no longer discharged, so it draws less current.

Yet another reason to take it easy with the bike after starting. It's also a good by product of the headlight coming on automatically which limits the available current to the battery right after starting when the battery is most vulnerable to high charging current.

The dynamics of the charging system are such that it realy pays off to keep your charging system and battery in good shape. The first thing to do is remove the crude mechanical regulator and replace it with a solid state regulator. The mechanical regulator does not work very well at high rpm's when the alternator is capable of producing high current. Typically, the mechanical regulator will cause a high voltage output from the alternator, which means the battery will be drawing destructive currents and the rotor will be running hot. This leads to battery failure, rotor failure and burned out bulbs. I repleced my crude mechanical regulator with a solid state regulator soon after I got my '78/E with 18,000 miles on it. The bike now has 78,000 miles (13 years of riding) on it and I have not had to replace the rotor. Batteries typically last me 3 or 4 years

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

So I'm installing a Sparx system on mine. The Sparx is supposed to put out a lot more power than the stock arrangement. How is it then that the Sparx system doesn't burn up XS batteries?

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