timing -problem getting right side to align...

Snake

now i have no spark on the right side, arrggghhhh.....left firing ok.....must have cooked something else. i suspect the condensor...

jpowell

Check and make sure the points are actually closing. then get a meter and check for 12V on the point when open, 0V when closed. If you replaced that wiring I'd suspect a bad crimp.

Retiredgentleman

Make sure there is no oil or grease on the points. How old are your ignition coil(s) and spark plug leads?

Snake

thanks, i will check the crimps :(, the coils are new, the leads are old...the condensor is unknown.....but i have a new one. the battery is down, but i was jumping it from a car battery so plenty of juice.

Snake

ok....still not sure what it was, but i re crimped the crimps, re set the points gap and away she went....i had intermitant spark on the right, but took it for a good blast (the Kiwi way) and that seems to have come right, i re did the timing when i got back and whilst not perfect, it is idling very well. as a note, something i think we all know but....the battery has to be fully chargfed for these beasts to run properly. thanks all again for the pointers

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

The Electronic Ignition suggestion is a good one.

I've been through this scenario on many bikes. I love old bikes.

But points ignition is always a compromise between what you can get and what it should be.

All the later bikes have it, because points are rubbish at staying timed. They have moving parts when none are needed. The advance curve being mechanical can never be perfect.

Fitting electronic igntion, so long as you no other unwarrented complications, will improve your start up, your fuel economy and the life of your engine components...

Compare this with the price of other spares, and addons, its about the best value there is.

imho..though it should be fully electronic.

Snake

i know, i am almost swayed to ECI....now the bloody thing won't idle...the right side only sparks above 2000 rpm.....battery 10V.......hmmmmmm....must check water level......i ran the bike at 120kmh for a 30km run to a mates place and back......now very rough...i have started again at the cam chain...as there was some serious rattling going on, and it shuddered at low speed/high gear.....arr the joys....ps.....becuase it "rattled" the missus now thinks it's to unsafe to ride...so she won't come anymore.....so at least one positive today....:)

xsjohn

Spanked it did you ......120Km.....what is that 75-80 miles an hour........what gear ratio are you running.....don't tell me....too much compression for all those un-needed rpms I found with trimed throttle.....need lots of power and throttle for racing but not for cruising ......works for a while but not the long run......clank......god I hate it when that happens......always expensive and time consuming if you don't need it or making some money at it...........been working on that theory for a while and finally may have something........

xsjohn

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

Start doing an electrical system check, Rotor, stator, battery, condenser and coils. get the coils and condensers properly tested, if not new coils at least..........Evan if you have done some motor damage, go through the electrics and get it sorted........They hate low speed high gear at the best of times and if you weren't getting spark to one pot below 2000 revs it would be clunking and shuddering to sh*t, if your chain isn't properly tensioned that would also add to the grinding and clunking................and even with 17 and 34 it will cruise like that no dramas on a 30k run
John 120kph is 75mph

Retiredgentleman

Snake;
As 650skull said, you need to check out the electrical system. If you measured only 10 volts at the battery, then your charging system is not working (or your battery has a dead cell). Your bike will never run right with low battery voltage.

Start with a few simple checks. Are the brushes greater than 7 mm (0.276"). Clean the alternator slip rings, so they are bright and shiney. At idle you should 13 volts (13.5 is better) at the battery. At 2500 RPM should be greater than 14 volts (14.5 is better).

Remove one brush, and measure the resistance from slip ring to slip ring................should be around 5 ohms.

Snake

ok. update. here are some photos of the ATU...this is what happens when you live a long way from replacement parts....i filed / ground the welds flat, and the lock nut was stripped, so i repaired the thread. unsure what the locating slot play will cause? i made sure the locknut was real tight.

2. i checked the condensors...and....maybe due to the fact i have the spark fairly good now and it is running heaps better.i.e firing properly and therfore running faster and with more vibration..but....the earth lead bolts had come loose.

3.i soldered the new crimps on the contact leads. RG my voltage at the battery on 2000rpm is 13.3.

so, right side timing has moved closer with my clean up of the ATU, right side sparking correctly now due to repair to earth/crimps...

more parts to get....but yet again i shall just keep adding to the list so i can try and order most of them at the same time to save on post...

Snake

PS...i have a 33T rear...and at 85kmh it was ticking over at 3400rpm, two up with approx 160kg sitting on board...(95+65)

Retiredgentleman

The ATU gap being worn larger than normal could be a problem. The camshaft has a pin on the right end that fits into that gap. The ATU then drives the weights, the advancer shaft, and the cam that operates the points. With that gap being wider, it appears that it could retard the timing of when the points open to fire the plugs.

Snake

RG, yeah thats what i thought, the timing advanced when i put the plate back in making sure it lined up to the original edge of the gap...

Retiredgentleman

Here's a pic of what the ATU gap should look like.

Snake

still not a perfect fit, and the design suggests it cannot be, so maybe as long as the locknut is tight, i may be ok.

just took bike for a run, i have a tapping noise when power off??....i was thinking i had screwed the cam chain tensioner in to far, i have loosened it off now, will test later when the heat dies down..

kojak · New Member Joined: Sep 10, 2009 Posts: 4

ok, having similar issues except my timing is too advanced and i have to retard point plate to the end of the slots(rotating anti-clockwise). seems to me a stretched chain would do the opposite. slot and hole are just about vertical maybe a tad rearward, so cam timing should be good...my head gasket is 1.5mm from mikesxs, and my manual calls for 1.2mm, but that doesnt seem like enough. i'm thinking of shimming out with thicker copper washers on the front chain rail mount to effectively shorten the chain and thus retard the timing...shorter points arms might work too. i've checked everything i can think of...what am i missing? help! 79 with top end from earlier i think '76...cam chain 20k on it i think, but arent they not supposed to wear that badly unless oil starvation? seems like a new chain would make my problem worse....all pins, keys, weights, etc. have been checked. thanks in advance

xsleo

With your timing marks at TDC and your pin for the points cam isn't straight up. It could be your cam chain is off by one tooth on the cam sporcket. This would be why your points plate is at the end of the slot. Before I put in a new chain, I had the same problem. The chain was so worn it jumped time on me once, I was fooling with the chain adjuster, I had it apart to replace the damper on the plunger and the chain slipped a tooth or two on the crank. It ran very badly until I figured it out.

kojak · New Member Joined: Sep 10, 2009 Posts: 4

the pins are pretty much straight up, definately not a tooth off at least. i have about .600" of distance from lock nut to tip of chain adjuster.

xs1961

..This is why I have a box fit to bursting with old sets of points/plates/springs/weights/rods...Its Boyer on all mine until the kids have grown up ,left home and I have more time to waste messing with antique contact-breaker ignitions no matter how good as they are fully set-up ! Twisted Evil

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